Transcript: Season 3, Episode 3
Carolyn Snell
Terri Trespicio:
What does it mean to make it big? Well, it depends on who you ask. And, we did. Welcome to Making It Big In 30 Minutes, a podcast for, by, and about the Emerson community. You're about to meet an Emersonian who's making it. Making a living, making a difference and sometimes making it up as they go. I'm your host and alum, Terri Trespicio. And, if you like what you hear, subscribe and share with your friends. And, meet me and other Emersonians over on Emerge, the only digital platform exclusive to the Emerson community. Just go to emerge.emerson.edu for more. All right. Let's get started.
Terri Trespicio:
Carolyn Snell went to see New Kids On The Block at the Nebraska State Fair in Lincoln on September 2nd, 1989. And, while most girls were busy swooning over Jordan and Donny, Carolyn fell in love with one thing. The idea of going on the road. She didn't pick up a guitar. She went to school and graduated from Emerson in 1997, with a degree in public relations. And, she's been living her dream.
Terri Trespicio:
Carolyn is an accomplished music veteran with nearly 25 years of combined touring, management and marketing experience. Carolyn has overseen and coordinated worldwide tours for artists like Reba McEntire, Janet Jackson, John Mayer, Kenny Chesney, and The Indigo Girls, and recently joined Brandi Carlile's team. She's also an advocate for Thistle Farms, which provides housing and employment for women and survivors of trafficking, prostitution, and addiction. And, you'll learn more about that in a minute.
Terri Trespicio:
It's a glamorous career. Sure. But, Carolyn is as real and grounded as they come. I give you Carolyn Snell on making it in the music industry. Well, Carolyn, look, you're just one of these people that you ask anyone or talk to anyone about you and everyone just loves you and raves about you. As far as I can tell, you just made it everywhere if everyone knows you and loves you.
Carolyn Snell:
Perfect. My mother and you know it. So, that's perfect. Done. Everyone. Thank you. That's it.
Terri Trespicio:
But, you're a music industry veteran with extensive experience in live events and management, marketing experience. For people who are not inside of the industry, we hear words like management and they mean lots of different things. We hear touring. We think we know what that is. Even day to day operations of the music industry. Here's a challenge, we're going to play a little game of flashback of Taboo. How would you describe what you do without using the words tour or manage?
Carolyn Snell:
Oh gosh, this is good. This is my brain teaser for me right now. So, I am involved in the music business live career of artists. In the past, I've been mainly focused on traveling. When artists go on the road and do shows, I handle all the logistics of getting them there from their house, to the venue, to staying in hotels, to flying or busing. And, once they're at a venue, dealing with tickets and passes, and making sure they get on stage in the right time. And then-
Terri Trespicio:
So, you're focused on the artist. You're not managing the entire venue and all of their stuff. There's other people to take care of that.
Carolyn Snell:
Correct.
Terri Trespicio:
Your attention is on the artist [crosstalk 00:03:09].
Carolyn Snell:
Right, exactly. Management of that specifically is ... I said the word. [crosstalk 00:03:14] Dang. But, mainly it's artists, band and crew overall, with specific focus on the artist. If it's a bigger artist, they have someone who deals with just the crew and someone who deals with just the band. And, I can focus on just the artist. But, if it's a smaller act, I do all of them. The bigger they get, the more people they can hire to handle all the minutiae and the little things, which is not little at all. It's actually their entire going on the road.
Carolyn Snell:
And then, in the artist management version, overall it's dealing with not just music, not just touring, but also everything in their whole career. So, it's from their songs and their writing. If they have books, if they have clothing, if they have all the other social media, all the things. Overseeing that as a whole versus just the music itself.
Terri Trespicio:
So, there's, for instance, people who would manage the venue in this one place and all different bands come through. But, you go with that group.
Carolyn Snell:
Correct.
Terri Trespicio:
So, in terms of how that's structured, you're employed by that group for a while, or you're like a vendor for that group for a while, and then you switch? Because, I imagine that you're kind of married to them. Or, can you be working with lots of people at once?
Carolyn Snell:
For tour management, mainly you're with one band or one artist at a time and touring around with them. Rock and Pop, generally, you work for three to six months, depending on how long the tour is. And then, you move on to something else. And, if they go on tour again, [crosstalk 00:04:39] you go back. Country music, which I had been dealing with for the last decade or so, is a little more family oriented, where you're out with them and you're out with them for the long haul. Which is nice because then, like you said, it's like a marriage that you're just in it and you're in the whole...
Terri Trespicio:
What's long haul?
Carolyn Snell:
I mean, I was with Reba McEntire for 10 years. So, that was my longest relationship.
Terri Trespicio:
That's a long time.
Carolyn Snell:
I know. Exactly.
Terri Trespicio:
That's your longest relationship. [crosstalk 00:05:01].
Carolyn Snell:
It is.
Terri Trespicio:
Well, that's longer than my longest relationship. Yes. But, I mean, you were with them and you get to be family. I mean, the pictures of you with these faces that we know so well, just the look on their faces looks like you are just at the center, like the rock. You can tell they're just like, "Oh my gosh. So grateful for this person." There's a need for the person who's the steady in the middle of all of that.
Carolyn Snell:
Absolutely. In any relationship, but especially when they're on the road and doing shows and interviews and not remembering where they are necessarily and having somebody who's a calm face.
Terri Trespicio:
So, you recently joined Brandi Carlile's management team.
Carolyn Snell:
I did.
Terri Trespicio:
So, now you're on the Brandi. Of course, who doesn't love her. And so, that's like the beginning of a relationship. It's exciting, [crosstalk 00:05:43] I imagine.
Carolyn Snell:
Yeah. We're back together, again. I tour managed her in 2007 for three months.
Terri Trespicio:
Okay. That's a while ago.
Carolyn Snell:
A little while ago. We stayed friends and that's who she is as a person and just as somebody who's great. I've followed her music career just as a fan and then a friend. And so, when she reached out again to join the management team, it was an easy... It wasn't an easy answer because I thought I'd have to give up touring. Because, I love the road. But, it turned out to be okay because I can still travel, but I don't have to be on the bus all the time with the band and the crew. I can go out for certain shows.
Terri Trespicio:
Oh, okay. I was going to say, because touring didn't happen though, for a long time.
Carolyn Snell:
Yeah, last year was hard for all of us. But, for somebody who that is my career is to go on the road and be traveling. That is the whole gig.
Terri Trespicio:
What the heck did you do?
Carolyn Snell:
Well, I spent a lot of time walking because we had to do something. Actually, I started a side hustle of transferring VHS tapes to digital links. It's the most nerdiest thing, but also-
Terri Trespicio:
What?
Carolyn Snell:
Yeah, I know [crosstalk 00:06:48] If you look behind me, there's a VCR behind me. I don't know if you want to see. It's from 1986. It's literally... It was one of those dumb things that I did. Actually, I did it for my parents as a gift for Christmas because I thought I don't have a job, so I can't afford to buy anything. So, I'm going to do this nice gift of transferring all your tapes in the basement. And, it was like magic. You're seeing these digital links now of joy that you had from years ago, that you're in, that you forgot.
Terri Trespicio:
Yeah, all of our family archives.
Carolyn Snell:
Yes. And, I just started a little side hustle and did that for a while.
Terri Trespicio:
Oh my gosh.
Carolyn Snell:
So, that was fun.
Terri Trespicio:
That was really smart. Because, what are people doing? Sitting around watching, ran out of shows on Netflix. [crosstalk 00:07:26] Let's watch our stuff from the eighties.
Carolyn Snell:
I almost said something about it in an Emerson forum on Facebook. And, I thought I can't do that to people that actually know technology. I'm just doing this as a side fun thing. Somebody's going to be like, "You're using what machine?"
Terri Trespicio:
No one even knows.
Carolyn Snell:
And, that's true.
Terri Trespicio:
Thank God. Because, obviously, lots of industries took serious hit. And, for someone whose life is moving around and taking people from one place to the other, I imagine that that was incredibly disruptive. But, it's coming back now.
Carolyn Snell:
Yes, it is. Thank God.
Terri Trespicio:
And, it's on the return and life is returning. And, this is, of course to us, a very glamorous life. I mean, you click through the images. It's, we're talking, you know, John Mayer, Janet Jackson, the Backstreet Boys. And, while there's a lot of glam there, there's a lot, I mean, this is cocktail party talk. Who wouldn't want to talk to you about what it's like to be around or work with these people. But, I suspect a lot of that work is not glamorous. How did you figure out you were cut out to do this specific kind of work?
Carolyn Snell:
I saw my first live concert, the one that actually made the most sense, when I was 15. I was 13, my freshman. My 15 year old self saw New Kids on the Block in Omaha, Nebraska. And, that's when I really got the bug of watching live music and seeing concerts. And, that was just my focus. And so, when I went to Emerson, I was literally like, "How do I get on the road?"
Carolyn Snell:
And, I don't even know how I would do that at Emerson because there wasn't a specific music program or business in that. But, it was enough. I knew about radio because that was, of course, during our time, radio was how you absorb music. And, I knew that I could get into public relations and I could intern at a radio station or work at... I had a show on ECB for one semester. It was horrible. I was such a bad DJ. But, I didn't think about how hard it would be or what the challenges would be. I knew I wanted to be on the road.
Terri Trespicio:
So, I was going to say, the things you do now, there's people in every industry who need that. There's lots of people who speak at events and run events. But, I was curious whether the industry led or the work led. It sounds like you were like, "I just want to be on the road with these people."
Carolyn Snell:
Exactly.
Terri Trespicio:
I want to be part of that scene. [crosstalk 00:09:39] You were never like, "Should I do that? Or, should I do corporate?" It wasn't even a thought.
Carolyn Snell:
Never. And, even trying to get into it after I graduated, I didn't even know the way in. But, I'd have to figure out something. And, because of having a degree in PR, somebody suggested, "Why don't you look at corporate sponsorship on the road?" And, that was my first in. Because, I had a PR degree from Emerson college. That was a big deal. I could go and I actually went out with Lilith Fair the first time in 1998.
Terri Trespicio:
Speaking of early nineties [crosstalk 00:10:09].
Carolyn Snell:
I went to an ad agency and said, "Can I get on the road?" And, they needed people to go out and hand out Biore Pore Strips.
Terri Trespicio:
Wait, so that's what you did? This is very interesting. You don't know how to get on the road. You don't have hookups with rock stars. You go to an ad agency?
Carolyn Snell:
Well, I first called every record label possible and said, "Hi, I'm..."
Terri Trespicio:
Can I come with you?
Carolyn Snell:
Yeah, I'm 21 years old. I'm female. I have no experience. Can I go on the road?
Terri Trespicio:
Can I come with you?
Carolyn Snell:
[crosstalk 00:10:38] Who is this person? And, there was no email that existed at the time. So, that wasn't an easy... Or, Google. There wasn't a way to...
Terri Trespicio:
There's no linking.
Carolyn Snell:
No, no, exactly.
Terri Trespicio:
You basically rode your horse up to the door of an old timey ad agency. You knocked on the door with your actual hand and you were like, "Can I come in and can I hit the road with y'all?"
Carolyn Snell:
That's what it was.
Terri Trespicio:
And, that's it. But, you said you were, because this is really important about asking and saying what you're into. There's an idea of I'll get the job if I just say I'll do whatever. And, no one wants to do whatever. You said, "I want to be able to be on the road."
Carolyn Snell:
Correct.
Terri Trespicio:
And so, what can I do here? And, they see you have a degree in PR and was their response, "We'll find you something?"
Carolyn Snell:
It was...
Terri Trespicio:
Or, "Hey, there's this job that exists." Because, who would assume there was?
Carolyn Snell:
Well, no. Again, it was that ignorance is bliss. I didn't know any better. Somebody put that bug in my ear of corporate sponsorship on the road. I went to Borders Bookstore and looked through a billboard magazine and saw Lilith Fair with their 10 sponsors. So, I figured out [crosstalk 00:11:40] how do I reach Starbucks? How do I reach Tower Records? How do I reach Biore Pore Strips?
Terri Trespicio:
You're like one 800, what? [crosstalk 00:11:46]
Carolyn Snell:
Exactly. It's like looking in phone books. God, this is where I sound so old. But, it's [crosstalk 00:11:51]
Terri Trespicio:
This is so great. I love this. Open the whole phone book.
Carolyn Snell:
But, somebody says yes and that's you're in. And, once you get in, I think then you figure it out. But, once you're in, you can talk to the people that you were trying to get ahold of, or you didn't know who to talk to. You find them.
Terri Trespicio:
Wait, what happened, though? So, you get this job...
Carolyn Snell:
So, I got the job. I went on the road with Lilith Fair as the Biore Pore Strip sponsor rep. I hired 10 models a day to hand out 15,000 pore strips to concertgoers. And, I met and talked to everyone on the tour. And, the next year the director of marketing was having a baby and she needed someone to go out and be her on the road. So, I was a sponsor coordinator for all the sponsor reps. And then, it just kept [crosstalk 00:12:34]
Terri Trespicio:
They were like, "You'll do."
Carolyn Snell:
Yeah, no, they were like [crosstalk 00:12:36] We know you. And, we've seen you work. And, you know what the tour needs. So, we want you to come and rep, be the rep for all the sponsors.
Terri Trespicio:
But, see, they might not have posted that job.
Carolyn Snell:
Never.
Terri Trespicio:
It's who you know. It's all connections. And, somehow, as if there's a clique that you're not part of. The fact is, you weren't part of any of it. And, you just showed up and you said, "I want to do this." You did this one job with the Biore Pore Strip. But, you didn't just do that job and why isn't anyone handing me a new job? It's, "Hey, let me meet everyone." Because, someone's life is going to change. Woman gets pregnant. She's going to take some time. And, it's like, "Well, you're here." It's about being in front of people, isn't it?
Carolyn Snell:
Absolutely.
Terri Trespicio:
You did that.
Carolyn Snell:
Absolutely. And, just connecting people. [crosstalk 00:13:16] One of the next tours I did was Blink 182. And, it was a two week... I was filling in for somebody, a sponsor rep for Sega Dreamcast. And, I filled in as the sponsor rep, again. Met three people, met the tour manager, the production manager and the accountant. And, I literally just had dinner with the accountant two weeks ago. Because, we're still friends. Because, I stayed touch with every person because you never know where it's going to lead.
Terri Trespicio:
You don't know. And, not only do not know where it will lead, but you don't know how you could help someone else.
Carolyn Snell:
Absolutely.
Terri Trespicio:
They were thrilled you were there. And, you were there and someone reliable and they trusted you and they were like, "Please, do this thing."
Carolyn Snell:
Exactly.
Terri Trespicio:
Did it just build from there? Were you loving just being out in the world? I mean, I can't think of a better, more fun way for a 20 something year old woman. Just be like, "Hey, I'm getting to know people. I'm out doing stuff." It sounds really exciting.
Carolyn Snell:
It was great. I did think that at some point that I needed to move to Los Angeles because I feel like that's a little bit of an Emerson thing, too. I did the LA program. I went out there and I tried. I worked at the Greek theater, had an internship at the Greek theater. My boss there was actually an Emerson grad, as well. And so, when I applied for the internship, she went, "Oh, you went to Emerson. Yeah. You got it."
Carolyn Snell:
So, it was fun to have... And, that was a great thing about Emerson. It's really [crosstalk 00:14:28]. Oh my God. So much so. So much so. But, I tried the venue side. I interned for a record label at one point. I didn't love it. I loved being traveling and being on the road and working with artists and seeing live music.
Terri Trespicio:
That's so fantastic. And, by the way, that person who said, you went to Emerson, that's not your best friend. That was just someone who saw that you had been to Emerson.
Carolyn Snell:
Exactly.
Terri Trespicio:
That's, to me, the magic of really any school you go to, but of Emerson, in particular. Because, they do look out for their people.
Carolyn Snell:
Absolutely.
Terri Trespicio:
There's a kind of thing that... How would you put that into words? I mean, a lot of people at other schools actually wouldn't do anything just because they went to the same school. What is that perceived bond, do you think?
Carolyn Snell:
I think there's something about if you get into Emerson and you have that experience of having the campus being Boston, not a specific campus. It's not sports heavy. We're all unique and weird in our own ways, and creative. But, it's knowing that you're cut from that same cloth somehow, and that you will help someone out. Because, when you went there, when I went there, the people that I connected with, I'm like, "Okay. So, we're very different in the ways that I didn't know, coming from Omaha, Nebraska to going to Boston." But, yet, I knew that we all got in somehow and we all had that special thing.
Terri Trespicio:
We had something.
Carolyn Snell:
Yeah.
Terri Trespicio:
And, it's a small enough community.
Carolyn Snell:
Yes.
Terri Trespicio:
That you're like, "Oh, we have so much more in common because we know only certain people are drawn there, go there." And, you know. And, I'm sure you've paid that forward and probably seen lots of Emerson people come through your path, as well.
Carolyn Snell:
Oh yeah.
Terri Trespicio:
And so, when was the next big step for you where you were like, "Holy cow, I can't believe this is happening."
Carolyn Snell:
So, the next one went was when I was doing sponsorship for a while, for a few years, and I really wanted to morph over to tour management. And, that was the how do I get into that? Because, even as a sponsor rep, I was connecting with people, but there was no, again, same thing that you said. There was no job offer. Like, here you go. Here's the next thing.
Carolyn Snell:
So, I was a sponsor rep on the Kenny Chesney tour in 2002. And, that was my first time working in country music. And, everyone there was so nice. And so, I was the sponsor rep. But then, I also helped with the tour manager's job of shoving tickets and passes and envelopes and decorating the after show just because I was there and I had time and I really wanted to be involved.
Carolyn Snell:
And so, the next year, when he was looking for an assistant, it was an easy like, "Hey, I've been doing it already. I'm assisting you. Let me come on to this side." And so, then I was able to now add that to my resume, assistant tour manager. Went on to John Mayer, assistant tour manager. And then, actually with Brandi in 2007, became a tour manager. And then, I could of add that to my resume as now I'm the actual tour manager for major tours.
Terri Trespicio:
And, that comes from, again, and I know it seems obvious to you maybe because you lived it, and obvious to people. But, this is not because you were like, "I checked these five boxes now I'm owed a job as a tour manager." It was, you were already kind of doing some of the work, to be in front of people and earning that trust. And, sounds like it was just one relationship at a time.
Carolyn Snell:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, for the people that maybe don't want to take the job that feels less because, I wanted to be a tour manager, but I don't want to do sponsorship or I don't want to be a production assistant or I don't want to do whatever the lower job is, that doesn't matter. That's exactly what you need to do to get the experience and meet the people.
Carolyn Snell:
Because, when I became the assistant tour manager, I actually knew I had some experience in doing it without the title, because I had been helping and assisting, not for money, but just for experience. So, I didn't want to become an assistant tour manager or a tour manager without having some knowledge. But, that's from doing the lesser jobs, quote unquote.
Terri Trespicio:
You don't strike me as someone who was like, "I don't want to deign to be this lower level person." You didn't have that fear. But, have you come across people in your own life, professionally or personally, who have said, "But, I don't want to do that." They're thinking bigger. And, they sort of leapfrog over people. I just don't think that's possible.
Carolyn Snell:
I don't either. There's a couple of people I've met recently that have said, "I didn't want to be an assistant or I didn't want to be a production assistant or like a runner on a show. I wanted to be a higher level and I'm not going to take a job that's not that."
Terri Trespicio:
It makes me cringe a little bit. Because, it's a little, I'm going to say it, because this didn't exist way back in the day. This whole, it's not just women, but I'm going to use the term girl boss, because it's this idea of like, "I can do anything." Yeah, you can, when you learn it.
Carolyn Snell:
Exactly.
Terri Trespicio:
No one's saying you have to do your time because I want to see you be a peon first. Getting a job that you haven't yet earned is like trying to get paid without doing the job. You have to do the work.
Carolyn Snell:
This is Karate Kid. You have to paint the fence, to learn the wax on and wax off. Sorry, I totally dated myself.
Terri Trespicio:
If you're playing nineties bingo, we should have a winner any minute now between [inaudible 00:19:38] and Karate Kid. Although, I think that might have been the eighties. Jesus, but yes, I love this. I mean you clearly have this, well, it's an Emersonian work ethic, too. I don't know of any Emersons who aren't afraid to get in there, get their hands dirty, just to do it.
Carolyn Snell:
So true.
Terri Trespicio:
But, this idea that, oh, things are ever below us...
Carolyn Snell:
Or, owed to us.
Terri Trespicio:
Or, owed to us. I mean, look, I've always been a writer. I've always identified as a writer. I felt like it, loved doing it. But, my first full-time writing job, I wrote for a wig catalog company.
Carolyn Snell:
That's amazing.
Terri Trespicio:
That's what I got.
Carolyn Snell:
And, think about what a great story that is that you can tell [crosstalk 00:20:17].
Terri Trespicio:
Oh, it is a great story. I know so much about wigs we can spend the rest of the time talking about that. We're not going to. But, my point is, I was like, "Fine. Whatever." If you like doing the work, you find your way in.
Carolyn Snell:
Yes.
Terri Trespicio:
So, that's how you got to do the work you wanted by doing the work. By going for it. And then, actually becoming hashtag girl boss, which you totally are.
Carolyn Snell:
Exactly.
Terri Trespicio:
But, you also use a lot of your time to do advocacy work and that's another thing that is like, people say, "This is a great thing to do and people should do it." But, you actually make time to do it. Talk to me about this advocacy work that you feel so strongly about.
Carolyn Snell:
Yeah. There's a nonprofit in town, in Nashville, called Thistle Farms. And, that's a nonprofit social enterprise that is for women who have histories of abuse, addiction, prostitution, and trafficking. And, they come off the street or out of jail and they live for free for two years. And, in that time they just get their lives back together, or together for the first time. They have all their health and dental needs met. They have mental help. They have group therapy, single therapy. And, it's just a way to heal in a way that they probably have never had that before.
Carolyn Snell:
And, it was founded in 1997 in Nashville. But, as the women were healing, they were going out into the world to try to get jobs. And, most of them have no job experience. Some have felonies. They weren't getting hired. So, they started a social enterprise called Thistle Farms, which makes and sells bath and body products. But, they have one candle that they started with in in 2001. And, they have now over 30 products. And, they partner with other women's organizations around the world to sell their products.
Carolyn Snell:
It's this really beautiful way of teaching them job skills. But, also giving them the space to heal in their own healing journeys. I got involved, actually, because I had ended a job and ended a relationship at the same time and was just like in my own...
Terri Trespicio:
Oh, that was an easy year.
Carolyn Snell:
Oh, it was great. It was super fun. I'm glad there wasn't COVID but I was just in my own head and my mother was like, "Go volunteer somewhere," which of course was mad because she was right.
Carolyn Snell:
But, like any good volunteer thing, I think that you find it was more healing for me than it was me helping out, quote unquote, was healing for me. And, it's really, I can see the change in women that go through this program. And, I believe in it so much because it's not just donating money to a cause. It's actually healing people and healing yourself in that, in community.
Carolyn Snell:
So, part of what I love to do with my work and entertainment is introduce the artists I work with, with this community. And, that, to me, feels like the highest level of success, is when I can really have them see as they're artists, as humans, but also in their platforms, if they can help promote Thistle Farms in that journey. I think that's me doing my part. That's me volunteering.
Terri Trespicio:
Well, what does that look like when you volunteer? You go there and are you putting candles in boxes? Are you teaching something? What did it start as, in terms of what you did, and what do you do now?
Carolyn Snell:
It started as, funny enough, I was just showing up on Wednesday mornings. They have this circle that's open to the public. It's similar to NA or AA where you sit around and somebody reads from a book and then we all check in. I would go there and I would just say, what do you need? I would love to volunteer. And, they didn't have a lot going on at the time.
Carolyn Snell:
And, finally, the volunteer coordinator said, "You won't leave. So, do you want to help our director of PR? Because, she could use help." I was like, "I have a degree in PR." Thank you, Emerson College. So, I started, this was early on of Facebook for groups and Instagram was just coming up. Twitter was just actually coming up. Instagram wasn't there yet. But, it was starting their Facebook page and writing a blog.
Terri Trespicio:
So, you helped build their platform. When was that? How long ago was that [crosstalk 00:24:03]?
Carolyn Snell:
That was in 2008. And then, as I continued on, then I would go back on the road and be gone for a while and then come back. But, within that, I always gave gifts to artists that I worked with. And, I see they follow them on social media now. That's great. And, Reba and Brandi have both played at the Thistle Farms fundraiser. The Indigo Girls who [crosstalk 00:24:23] I know. It's amazing.
Carolyn Snell:
But, it's because they see my belief in it and they learn about it through just me talking about it and meeting some of the women that are in the program, because it's something I really believe in. And, I think that having my connection with these artists helps them. If they're going to donate money or if they're going to talk about a cause, it's not just something that they've heard about, they actually know somebody who's involved with it and they can help out that way.
Terri Trespicio:
What would you say? I mean, a lot of people say this sounds great. It'd be great to be part of a cause. And, pick a cause, any cause. There's a million causes. And, the number one reason would be, who has time to do this other thing? Someone might go, "It's nice if I could do it, but I can't." What do you think someone misses out on by not connecting with a cause that way?
Carolyn Snell:
I feel like, at least for me, for Thistle Farms specifically, it has saved my life, just in how I view healing and heartbreak. I mean, that's the thing I love about Thistle specifically, is that the stories might be different between the women, but we have all been broken in whatever way that looks like. And so, the healing part of it is you can push aside with work or with drugs or with alcohol or whatever the thing is that you try to numb with, but real healing starts in community.
Carolyn Snell:
And, I think that Thistle specifically, but other places that you can volunteer at, it really does. You're helping someone out because you're taking the focus off of yourself. And, if you don't do that, you're missing out on getting that healing. You're not even necessarily looking for it, but you get it from giving back.
Terri Trespicio:
Oh, so you don't think that if I get more likes, likes don't equal healing, I won't be healed if I get more likes? [crosstalk 00:26:01] I thought that would help.
Carolyn Snell:
Keep trying. Let me know how that works.
Terri Trespicio:
But, that's the ultimate irony to this huge effort we have, and your artists have, and everyone has, to try to draw attention to us to make meaning of our lives. That attention doesn't, I'm sure that you've had many late night discussions with many a very famous artist, who will probably tell you. All that attention is not what makes us better.
Carolyn Snell:
Exactly. Exactly.
Terri Trespicio:
You know what I mean? Is there something that you'd be surprised by? You've been up and close with the biggest names in the industry. And, none of us will know them the way you know them and the moments you get to share. Are there things that you would say, "Here's something that I've learned from them that you might assume that isn't true?"
Carolyn Snell:
Probably just that the amount of success, what that looks like in terms of money or fame or likes, in this case, that doesn't equal happiness. [crosstalk 00:26:54].
Terri Trespicio:
It's not what makes them successful in their minds.
Carolyn Snell:
No. And, the moments of real being honest as humans and connecting with, and knowing that just because he or she has all the things that you think, that we think, that we need to make us happier, wherever we get the next hit record or their next raise or the bigger job or the bigger name on Broadway. Really, when you get it, even for myself, even when I bought my first house and I was tour managing a huge star. And, I was like, "Okay, I've made it." And, I thought, "Oh, this is not... Why aren't I feeling a hundred percent fulfilled?" Because, it's not just that. It has to be the giving back and getting that healing and getting that fulfillment from other places, not from status.
Terri Trespicio:
It's deep stuff. But, it's true.
Carolyn Snell:
It's true.
Terri Trespicio:
But, that, I think, is the great... Because, as long as we don't have the cool job or the money or this, it's easy to blame those things. And then, when you go do those things, think about all these, I mean, you know the statistics as well as anyone, that there are just scores and scores of people who are quitting and leaving jobs and going, "What did we just do for a year?" When you strip away everything else and just had the work, for many people, that work was not enough. And, what it did was strip away some of the stuff that might have made it bearable. And, it became less than bearable. And so, people are leaving in droves and it doesn't mean they're hopping over to a better thing right away, but they say something has to be better.
Terri Trespicio:
And, of course, they have to learn a living. We have to do things that feed us and fulfill us. But, what do you say to the people in your life who you know are unhappy? Think about all these Emerson people, these young people who are going out into the world and maybe been out for a few years, and this has been a crappy couple of years. The answer might be partly yes, fine causes you believe in. But, what about from a career perspective? Aside from pulling out the phone book and asking people if you can go on the road, what would be some things you'd say, "Here's what I tell people."
Carolyn Snell:
You are a writer. I'm going to use you an example. You are a writer. That is what you are always. If you sell a million books or never sell a book, you are a writer. That is your, I don't want to say passion, something else. And then, there's the thing that you do, your career.
Terri Trespicio:
My job.
Carolyn Snell:
Yeah. But then, sometimes you just have to get a job. So, it's literally like if you're a writer and that's all you want to do in your heart and you just have to do it, but you're not published or you can't find that job, that career, to make you a writer. Sometimes it's okay to just get a job. And, to do the job [crosstalk 00:29:35]
Terri Trespicio:
Thank you. It is more than, okay. You must get a job.
Carolyn Snell:
Yes. And, get a job. And, guess what. As a writer, you're going to be talking about the wig store, writing for the wig store for the rest of your life. I mean, that's a great job.
Terri Trespicio:
You're going to use what you get. You're going to use what you learned. It doesn't mean you stay and long suffering through the pandemic and a job you hate. But, it does mean that there... You don't consider yourself defined only by the success in music.
Carolyn Snell:
No. But, you know what? A long time, because that has been my focus for so long, at 15, knowing I wanted to go on the road. It was hard when pandemic happened and I had to stop. There was no touring. There was no job. There was no career to talk about. Because, that's how I define myself. So, that was a shock.
Terri Trespicio:
Ah, yeah. I thought I was a speaker till, literally, everything closed. And, I was like, "I guess I'm not speaking this year."
Carolyn Snell:
Look at you now. Look at now.
Terri Trespicio:
I was like, "I'm going to talk to myself on my computer."
Carolyn Snell:
And, it works out. But, that's the thing you pivoted and you figured out, I hated pivoting. Sorry. I said the P word. I didn't mean to say it. Everyone pivoted, but it's true.
Terri Trespicio:
You did. You opened up your own businesses. A side hustle, turning eight track tapes into digital things or something.
Carolyn Snell:
Think digital links of joy.
Terri Trespicio:
I love it. I love it. And, I'm so happy you get to be on the road again, and you're going to be out with Brandi Carlile.
Carolyn Snell:
Thank you.
Terri Trespicio:
We'll wrap it with this. Well, you started to talk about it, but I'll ask you again. What do you think it means to make it and how will you know when you get there?
Carolyn Snell:
I think that it is about your community. The people that you surround yourself with, the people that you can call on the really hard days and share the really important joys in your life with. I do think that even though I love what I do, and I love the famous people I get to hang out with, and the cool things I get to experience because of them, not because of necessarily what I'm doing. I just happen to be there. I really think it's important, at the end of the day, to have that, not just person, but people that you can share that with. Share those experiences with.
Carolyn Snell:
And, taking the power that you have as, in my case, being a privileged white person, to give back and promote others and help support others that are marginalized or that don't have the chance to do it on their own. And, I think that, honestly, helping others and helping lifting others up makes me feel like I have won the lottery a million times over.
Terri Trespicio:
Carolyn Snell. You're a gem.
Carolyn Snell:
Ah, thanks.
Terri Trespicio:
Thank you so much for being on with us.
Carolyn Snell:
Thanks for having me.
Terri Trespicio:
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