Sarah Spiers ‘17 as Making it as a Video Game Producer

Sarah Spiers, like so many Emersonians, had a life changing trip to the Castle. It was there that a conversation with a friend inspired her to pursue her love of video games. A few years later, that passion landed her on Forbes 30 Under 30 in the games category!  Sarah discusses being your own biggest cheerleader and how her unconventional path prepared her for her current role at Electronic Arts. Recorded on September 8, 2023.

 

Transcript: Season 7, Episode 4

Sarah Spiers

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Speaker 1:
What does it mean to make it big? Well, it depends on who you ask, and we did. Welcome to Making it Big in 30 Minutes, a podcast for by and about the Emerson community. You're about to meet an Emersonian who's making it, making a living, making a difference, and sometimes making it up as they go.
As far as we are concerned, if you are making something, you've made it big time. We know you'll enjoy hearing our host Hunter Reis from the class of 2017, and all of our guests share how Emerson shaped their lives and careers after graduation. So, let's get into it.

Hunter Reis:
Sarah Spiers didn't always know that she wanted to get into the video game industry, but a conversation at Castile well changed the trajectory of her career. Now, only six years after graduating from Emerson, Sarah works as a development director at Electronic Arts Maxis Studios, the company behind games like The Sims.

She's a rising force in the video game industry, making it on Forbes 30 Under 30 list in 2022, and she does it all while living just a stone's throw from the Emerson campus. Here's Sarah Spiers on making it as a video game producer. Thank you so much, Sarah, for joining us today on Making it Big. I'm really excited to talk to you.

Sarah Spiers:
Oh, thank you. I'm really excited to be a part of this. I really miss my Emerson days. I'm one of those people. I actually live very close to Emerson, so I got to hear everyone screaming when they were moving people in, so that was a lot of fun.

Hunter Reis:
Oh, my gosh. Incredible. You're in Boston still? What part of the city?

Sarah Spiers:
I'm in Chinatown.

Hunter Reis:
Cool.

Sarah Spiers:
Right near Jaho. So, if you're familiar with the area, you vaguely know where I am.

Hunter Reis:
Oh, yeah. I spend so much time in Chinatown during my days there. I'm going back next week to Boston to just hang out and I will absolutely be eating and drinking my way through Chinatown.

Sarah Spiers:
Oh, it's so good. It's been great.

Hunter Reis:
So, we actually are the same year, which adds to the excitement of this. I do remember you though. We were in completely different majors and everything.

Sarah Spiers:
Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I know.

Hunter Reis:
We bumped shoulders quite a few times in passing and things like that, so it's great to have you here today.

Sarah Spiers:
Yeah, thanks. I saw that we're in the same year and I was very excited, but also a little nervous because I feel like I was such a mess in college.

Hunter Reis:
Who wasn't?

Sarah Spiers:
And I had no idea what I was doing. So, I was like, "Okay, this is my chance to redeem myself."

Hunter Reis:
That's the sole reason why I took this podcast. I need to write a new page. No, I'm just kidding. So, you are in the video game industry. Can you tell me a little bit about what you do? Just a quick synopsis, maybe one or two sentences?

Sarah Spiers:
Sure. I do too many things, but the TLDR that I like to tell people is I'm a people manager and I'm also a project manager for Maxis Studios, which is the studio behind The Sims. So, a little bit of everything, but mostly focused on building a great people experience for our developers.

Hunter Reis:
Wow, very cool. I grew up on The Sims. I still love The Sims, so that's really cool to hear. When did you know that you wanted to work in the gaming industry?

Sarah Spiers:
Oh, gosh. I actually had been toying with the idea a little bit, so I didn't know at all when I was younger. Before college, I was like, "I'm going to be a writer." and that's why I came to Emerson because I wanted to be in the writing literature and publishing program.
And then, towards the end of freshman year, I was like, "Oh, maybe I could write for games." and I wasn't entirely sure. And then, in the most cliche way possible, I went to the Castle my sophomore year and I actually remember, her name is Emma.

And she sat me down and was like, "I believe that you can make games if you want to, Sarah." And I said, "Okay." And I thought that was really inspirational and nice and then I came back. So, I think it was the summer of my sophomore year I started or I tried to get into the VMA program and I did, and then I started taking classes. So, it's about then.

Hunter Reis:
Wow, amazing. So, you actually switched your major after sophomore year?

Sarah Spiers:
Yeah, I think I did. I'm trying to remember the timeline. It's been so long. But I think I came back from the Castle. It was first semester and then I was like, "I need to switch my major." And then, I applied. Actually, what I did was I applied for a create your own interdisciplinary major, which was writing for interactive media, and it was rejected and that made me mad.
So, I went and applied for VMA and got a minor in creative writing, which I'm going to say at the end of the day, I basically took the same classes that I would've in the interdisciplinary major. So, it worked out.

Hunter Reis:
Yeah, I have to say that honestly is surprising that they rejected it because that sounds like more of a legit major than some of the majors Emerson has.

Sarah Spiers:
Yeah. To be fair, I think they realized that I was going to have to take summer classes to actually graduate on time, and so they were worried I was overcommitting, which I appreciate, but I was also very ambitious and I did it anyway. So, oops. Oh, well.

Hunter Reis:
That's amazing. Wow. An Emerson student overcommitting, who could have guessed?

Sarah Spiers:
I know. That's our MO.

Hunter Reis:
That's amazing though that basically a conversation in the Castle really scoped your career. Can you tell me a little bit about your experience at the Castle and maybe how you realized that this is actually your calling?

Sarah Spiers:
Yeah. So, I think it just feels really cliche to talk about. But if you had the opportunity to go to the Castle, I think you have a lot of time to think more so than at least when I did in Boston. Because when I lived in Boston, I would be going out, I'd be doing stuff all the time because you're in the middle of downtown. How could you not?

But when you're in the Netherlands, in an area that isn't particularly populated and there's not a lot of stuff to do, there's a lot of time to go walk or sit around and talk. And so, that's a lot of what I did during the week when I wasn't traveling.
And everyone was just genuinely interested in each other and what we wanted to do. And I had just had a lot of conversations with people and games was the thing that I was really passionate about because I really liked narrative games in particular.
It was really fun talking to people about the media, not just games, but just the media that really influenced them. And in particular, I talk about this conversation with Emma. It was also, I don't know if this is a thing you do at the Castle or if it was just my year, but we all wrote each other little encouraging anonymous notes.

And I still have mine in a journal of people being like, "I believe in you. You can do this." And it was the fact that people that I had met and just talked to for a semester believed in me. I was like, "Oh, I can do anything if these people can believe in me."

And so, I think that was the moment where I was like, "Okay, I have to try at least." So, I don't know, it's a sappy thing, but I love it. And again, like I said, I have those notes still and I read them.

Hunter Reis:
That's great. I bet that's what the Castle's for, just to get away from the hub of the city-

Sarah Spiers:
Yes.

Hunter Reis:
... and just be alone with your thoughts. I never did the Castle when I was at Emerson, and that's probably the one thing that I regret. Honestly, it was one of those things where I had already front loaded all of my Gen Ed requirements.
So, if I were to go to the Castle, it would've set me off and I maybe would've had to do an extra semester or something. So, it wasn't in the cards for me, but I've only heard positive experiences and people having these revelations like you had.

Sarah Spiers:
Yeah. No, I was very fortunate to go, I will admit. And I know it is a privilege for sure. I lucked out in that I was one of the people that did not want to do all my Gen Eds front. So, that I think worked in my favor for once.

Hunter Reis:
So, now, let's fast forward nine years probably. And you are successful in your field. What's one project that you've worked on since graduating that would impress your Castle aged self?

Sarah Spiers:
Oh, gosh. And this is so funny because it's not even a game. I love what I work on now at Maxis, for sure. But the thing that I never, just never would've guessed is, so while I was at Emerson, I was part of a scholarship program through a nonprofit called the IGDA foundation, which stands for the International Game Developers Association Foundation.
And it's a nonprofit dedicated to helping people from marginalized and underrepresented backgrounds get into and stay in games. And it's like a cool little, like they send you to a conference, you get a mentor, blah, blah, blah. So, I started volunteering with them.
And at some point, COVID is a thing. And we as the nonprofit had to stop all of our programs. So, I was a volunteer at the time. We couldn't fly people from overseas to California. It just wasn't safe. It wasn't feasible. And we had a lot of people quit the nonprofit because they didn't see a future and I didn't.

And I was asked to completely transform the way that we have our programs. So, I basically converted our mentorship program and talent programs into virtual programs, and they are now the staple of the nonprofit. And I actually was really fortunate I got to be the interim executive director for a bit, and that's something that I never would've ever fathomed that I would've done.

And I'm so proud of it because now we do have our in-person programs, but we now have a virtual program where we're able to help people who would never even be able to come to the United States. And they still get that mentorship and the technical skill support and interviewing experience and portfolio reviews that everyone who would do the in-person program would get.

Hunter Reis:
Wow, that's amazing. That must feel so rewarding to know that you really are helping people around the whole world getting to this hard to crack industry.

Sarah Spiers:
Yeah. I am really thankful and I feel like I was at the right place at the right time, but it was really great. And I've seen some really talented people go through who are immensely successful, and I'm very, very happy to have been part of their journey.

Hunter Reis:
Incredible. Wow. Do you maybe have any advice for students who are graduating soon and want to get into the game industry? What are some of the tough parts about cracking in?

Sarah Spiers:
Sure. So, I would say the most important thing for everyone, and again, I feel like a lot of what I say is cliche, but the most important thing is to not give up because the games industry, I think any entertainment industry is really hard to get into, especially right now.
The games industry is in a rough place, and I won't go into it too much, we over hired during the pandemic, so everyone's now dealing with layoffs and whatnot. Really being okay with not necessarily getting into all of the big companies is something to think about.
You are still a game developer if you're making games by yourself. You are still a game developer if you're making games with friends or an indie company. There's this emphasis on you have to be at Blizzard or Riot or EA to be a game developer.

That's not true. I actually did not get a job with any big companies when I graduated. In fact, I had to work a couple of contracts, and then I worked in educational games. And that took half a year for me to get my first full-time game job, and I really lucked out.
So, just really be patient and believe in yourself and know that it's going to take some time, I think, which is not. I feel like the most actionable advice, but it's really true. And then, the other thing I would tell people is the hard reality is that you have to make games to get into games.

And even if you want to be a producer and you're not going to be programming or making art, you still need to try and make something because the competition's pretty fierce. And I know that can be really hard when you have other things in your life that you need to take care of.

Again, it's a whole conversation of like, oh, having the privilege to be able to do all these things can be really, really difficult and whatnot. But make games, be patient and realize that success looks a little different for everyone.

Hunter Reis:
For someone, maybe I feel like I'm a casual gamer. I have the Switch. I play my Zelda. But for somebody who hasn't had any experience making games of themselves, where do you think is the best place to start? Or do you think there's a barrier of entry to doing that?

Sarah Spiers:
So, it can be really intimidating. So, I'll just be upfront with everyone. I do not program. I do not program. I do not do art but I write. I started in WLP major. What I did was I looked for game engines that did not require coding knowledge or art requirements.
And so, some of these would be like RPG Maker, that was my honors thesis. I made an RPG Maker game and talked about horror games. Twine is another one. It's an interactive text thing. I think it's like the intro to interactive video class, you'll know how to use Twine.

It's just front-end web development skills, but not even. And just tinkering away, making lots of little small things is totally fine, because that shows that even though you didn't have the coding classes or the art classes that maybe some of your peers had, you're still trying.

And that's what we really want to see from folks is that you are doing all that you can given the resources that you have. So, that's usually what I would recommend as a first step, especially if you're not super intense in the games.

Hunter Reis:
If Emersonians are anything, they're resourceful. So, I feel like that's good.

Sarah Spiers:
Yes, they are.

Hunter Reis:
And I want to go back to the advice that you mentioned about you don't have to work at EA or Blizzard to be a game designer because I feel like that's advice that really goes for almost every field, especially at Emerson. When I started my career, my first job out of college was at eNews. And then, shortly after, I worked at Entertainment Tonight. And both of those were great opportunities.
But I find that the smaller companies that I've worked for since tend to be a lot more, well, in my experience, have been more rewarding and tend to care about you as an individual more so than some of these big companies. So, you really don't have to be at the biggest and the best to be making an impact in your field.

Sarah Spiers:
For sure. Yeah. No, I want to emphasize that because anyone who remembers me from college will know that I was dead set to work on the Dragon Age franchise, which is at BioWare is a subsidiary of EA or the synths. That was what I wanted to do.
And I was so heartbroken because I could not figure out how to get anyone to look at my resume. And it just felt like this endless trudge through applications and interviews if I got any. And I wound up for the majority of my career working at smaller companies.
And you're right, they cared about what I wanted to do. I learned so much. I learned probably faster because there were less people. So, I'd wear many hats. I will say film at games, which was the educational games company I worked at, honestly made me into the best games producer that I could have possibly been.

I feel like every producer that comes out of that company knows so much. And I maybe wouldn't have gotten that, had I gone to a bigger company? And I actually feel more prepared to be working at EA than I probably would have had I not gone through all those indie experiences.

And I know people really want to have the big name. I get it. But for me, I think the journey is more important than the things you learn because what's the point in getting the really cool successful thing if you can't actually succeed in that?

Hunter Reis:
Very well said. Have you noticed that there's been changes in your industry since you started?

Sarah Spiers:
Oh, yeah. When I first started in games, I'll talk a little bit about the community's aspect of it. The tech aspect, I think everyone sees like, oh, there was VR, then there was crypto, and then there's all this other stuff, and we've talked to death about it.
But I'll talk a little bit about, like I said, community. So, when I first started, games in Boston were in a downswing almost. A lot of the bigger companies had closed and people had moved out of the East Coast to go find work typically on the West Coast.
And it was pretty demoralizing and a little strange, but there was a really great and vibrant indie community. And so, there was this really awesome indie, well, I mean, it's Boston Festival of Indie Games, they're still around. But there was a really great indie festival community, and we all knew each other and we all worked for the same companies.
It was this really tight-knit circle. But over time, things have changed because now with remote work, we have folks like me who live on the East Coast now who don't work for an East Coast company. So, I don't see any of my coworkers. And so, the community is still pretty tight-knit, but it's a lot more broad now.

You see a lot of people who aren't necessarily working at these companies in the areas, and I think that is a good thing, ultimately. I'm a huge proponent of remote work. I think it's really great for accessibility, but it's been a little different.
It feels, not that the community is not as strong, but it's just different. And I think every game industry location and community feels that now, which I think ultimately is for the best.

Hunter Reis:
Absolutely. I'm a big proponent of remote work as well. On my episode, I had a little tangent on it. But I do think that it's the future and people need to... if you work in industries like this where you're in video games, I'm in social media, it could work.
Obviously, it doesn't work for everybody, but I think it is a good, I don't know, I've left companies because they took away the work from home policy. And I feel like as generations get into the workforce, there's going to be a different mode of operation. So, I'm excited for the future for that.

Sarah Spiers:
Me too. Yeah, I think it's really helpful, especially in these entertainment industries when it's possible. I acknowledge it's not always possible. When it's possible, it's helpful because you're getting people who normally weren't able to be in these companies actually come to the companies and bring their perspectives and experience.

Hunter Reis:
Do you have any favorite games right now?

Sarah Spiers:
Is it cheesy if I say The Sims? I do like The Sims. I also have been playing Boulder Skate just about everyone else. I love games that are narrative-based based. I've also been playing, it's the Cosmic Wheel Sisterhood, which is a game about a witch, and you make your own like tarot cards and you go on this adventure, and I'm not that far in.
Very fun if you narrative puzzley mystical things. And then, I don't play as many games as I used to because I make games now. That's like the game developer's curse, is once you started making games, you play less of it.

Hunter Reis:
So, I want to dive into something that I think is really cool. You made it on the 30 Under 30 list recently. Can you tell me a little bit about the process of that?

Sarah Spiers:
Sure. I love demystifying this because I am going to be honest, I went on Twitter because I was doing research about Forbes 30 Under 30, and I was trying to figure out how do you get on this list? There's a lot of wild assumptions about how you get on the list.
The first thing I want to say is that I can only really speak to the games list. Some of these other lists, I don't want to diminish the work of my peers on the games list. But sometimes on these other lists, you'll have actual Hollywood celebrities on them, and it's just not the same.

So, the games industry list in particular is I feel like very real and tangible people that you can actually... they're approachable, you can talk to, you can find them. They're not like, "Oh, I could see them from 1,000 feet away and they have 5 million guards." Anyway. So, I will tell everyone my favorite part of the Forbes list, I nominated myself. That is what I did.

Hunter Reis:
As you should. As you should.

Sarah Spiers:
And I encourage everyone because there's this idea of like, oh, you pay to get in. Some people do have PR teams that help them. Yes, I was not one of those people. Any award I've ever gotten, I've nominated myself and I've had people, I've asked people, "Hey, would you nominate me?"

I will write the nomination for you if you just hit send, because I was trying to advocate for myself. But what you do is you submit a nomination on their website. And if you are seriously interested in this, I'll tell you.
The first thing you do is you write this giant, I think it's like a 1,000-word max or 1,000, I think it's 1,000 words max, of all the things you've accomplished specifically from a business lens in the sense of you are trying to demonstrate how successful business-wise and corporate-wise. Like can you make the company look good kind of way?

So, I talked about all the work I did in games, specifically focusing on amount of players reach or how much money and funding we got, awards that we won. And then, with the foundation, I talked about how many people we impacted and the partners that we had, so like what are the big companies we worked with.

You can also get people who are on the list to nominate you as well. And then, what happens is I think the people who run the category will go through and pick out a shortlist. Usually, the shortlist is about 60 to 80 people, and then they send you this form with a bunch of questions. And some of them are like, "If you could have any mentor in the world, who would it be and why?" And then, they also ask you questions about the state of the economy. And I honestly have never figured out if those are actually used to be judged or not or if they're just curious, but I treated them seriously. And then, they have industry judges look at them and then they pick a cohort. And the way that they pick a cohort is through some metrics that I don't fully understand. But what they do is they try and pick people that work well together and have a well-rounded cohort. So, I applied to Forbes twice and got in the second time.

I've known people who've applied three times and got in the third time. It really just depends on who else is applying and who the judges are that year. But that's the process. And if you get to be the cover person, you get a photo shoot. But I was not the cover person for five years, so I did not get to do the photo shoot. That's okay though.

Hunter Reis:
Well, we have one more shot at it. I'm turning 29 soon, so we probably have one more shot. So, you can-

Sarah Spiers:
Let me nominate you.

Hunter Reis:
You can be the cover star. I'll be nominated. That would be wonderful.

Sarah Spiers:
And then, you have to get the cover shoot. You've got to do it. I need an Emersonian to be that person.

Hunter Reis:
I'm sure there's already been an Emersonian somewhere.

Sarah Spiers:
That's true, yeah. Probably, yeah. There's so many entertainment categories and they keep adding stuff. So, honestly, I should do my due diligence and find out.

Hunter Reis:
That's incredible though. I mean, that's a huge goal and you have a certain amount of time to hit that goal. So, do you have something that's next that you really want to achieve?

Sarah Spiers:
Oh, gosh, yes but it's not what people would imagine. So, I miss creative writing. And in the past year, I've really toned down the amount of games stuff I was doing. To give you an example of what I would call my busiest year, I did 20 talks and then was in the nonprofit and had a job at PUBG at the time.

And I burned out so spectacularly. And I was like, "Is this worth it?" Is all of this worth it? And the answer I came to was, I don't know. And so, I stepped back and I asked myself, "What is something that I really love or that I used to love?" And it was creative writing.
That's why I came to Emerson. And so, I've been spending a lot of time writing. And what I really want to do is write books, like actual get an agent, get published, do the whole book thing, because that was actually my dream growing up was to be an author.
So, that's what I'm trying to do. And then, the other thing is I experiment with making perfume. And one day, I would love to do a limited-edition release of some sense just for fun.

Hunter Reis:
That's so cool. Really, all over the gambit, huh?

Sarah Spiers:
I know. I just like to be creative. My job is wonderful, but it is very technical and very emotionally intensive, so I like to have hobbies that are very creative.

Hunter Reis:
I can imagine that even working in games helps your creative writing a little bit because you see all these fantastical worlds, anything like that?

Sarah Spiers:
Yeah. The one thing I think is really fascinating, especially with The Sims, because The Sims lets you create lives for fictional people. But being in the game side, you also get to see how people interact with the game. And it helps you think about who are the people in your stories and what are their motivations. And one of the little, like when you're writing and you're supposed to interview your characters, so you know what they're like. The question I like to ask my characters now would be like, "How would you play The Sims?" Are you going to be the person that's going to try and nurture them and get them to have a really great job or a really wonderful family or do a lot of work in their community?

Or are you going to be the person that sets their house on fire and takes the ladder away from the pool? What is my character like? How would they play? And it's been really helpful in figuring that out. And then, also, you work with some really talented people and you get to ask them questions, be like, "Hey, I know that I'm not a narrative designer, but you're a narrative designer. How would you approach this writing problem?" And it's very helpful.

Hunter Reis:
Well, how do you play The Sims? Which one are you?

Sarah Spiers:
Well, usually, I like to have one. So, I like to play generational challenges, but I play it where I have one sim that I like and I nurture their lives that everyone else's life just gets left by the wayside or is in service to the one sim that I choose. I don't know what this is about me, but.

Hunter Reis:
I feel that. Usually, when I start a game, I'll play as a young adult who makes it in the top of their field, whether that's acting or journalism or whatever it is, and then I make them a witch, and then they set fire to other people's houses who wronged them.

Sarah Spiers:
That's amazing. Honestly, that's a goal.

Hunter Reis:
The supernatural pack is where it's at.

Sarah Spiers:
I agree.

Hunter Reis:
Okay. So, we talked about your career influencing, your side hobbies. Has there been anything that you've learned at Emerson in your classes that you still use today?

Sarah Spiers:
One of the most impactful classes I've ever had, and I am rusty with the knowledge, but I still remember it was gender in a global perspective with Professor Srinivas, I believe. And just thinking about gender performance because The Sims is all about building your characters the way you want them and feeling like you're able to express yourself. And it's really interesting to have that knowledge and be thinking about how can we make it where players feel like they're expressing themselves to the fullest extent in the stems. Although, I'm not involved in the design decisions, but I get to see that. And then, also in a less tangible way, Emerson is so creative. And all the people in it are very creative, and we get to work together. And honestly, learning how to work on a team with a bunch of people that you're not best friends with is such a huge life skill.

We can't always work with our best friend. Sometimes you don't want to work with your best friend, but it's been very, very helpful. Because working in games, you work with people with all sorts of personalities and work style preferences, and you really have to learn how to deal with that because you can't tell everyone when to work and how to work. So, that's been helpful. And then, I don't know, everything in Emerson's been really great. My approach to college was not necessarily I'm going to college to get a job, it was I'm going to college to broaden my perspective and learn how to be an adult. And so, I feel like I did. I hope that I did. I tried to take interesting classes with different professors. And I am one of the people that really, really loved college, and I'm very thankful that I got to experience all that at Emerson.

Hunter Reis:
Yeah, I feel you. I really loved college as well, and I feel like a lot of that does come just from that specific Emerson experience. If we had gone elsewhere, who knows?

Sarah Spiers:
Who knows?

Hunter Reis:
But I have asked that question actually before. And you're the first person to bring up a gender studies class, so I really love that.

Sarah Spiers:
Yay. Okay. It was the best class.

Hunter Reis:
Yeah. It's so fun. And talk about broadening horizons, just concepts and things that you would've never thought that you would learn about in college, but now you can actually sit down and study them. I think that's very cool. Have you ever felt that you might be on the wrong path? I know that you said you want to dabble in other things, but have you ever done something that just you knew wasn't right for you?

Sarah Spiers:
So, yeah. I had this big like, "Oh, no, what am I doing?" So, I mentioned I was doing a gazillion talks and I was in a nonprofit, all that. It was a lot. And one of the things that I've learned is that when I start doing everything, it means that I am internally struggling with something and I like to turn to work as a way of escaping how I feel. And it came to a head at some point, I had a friend pull me aside and be like, "Hey, you're burning out and I can see, and I don't know if you can see it." And I really didn't know if I wanted to be in games anymore. I didn't know if I wanted to be... I'm technically a producer, although my title does not say that because EA is weird about titles, but I didn't know if I wanted to do game production anymore.

I didn't know like I had no idea. I was like, "Maybe I'm going to go work in nonprofit land." And then, part of me was like, "No, I don't want to work in nonprofit stuff anymore." I don't know. So, yeah, I had to pull back one by one and invest in hobbies to try and find some sense of sanity. And I think when things calmed down, I was able to be like, "No, I actually do like what I'm doing when I'm really focusing on the things I actually care about." instead of doing everything, which is what I was doing essentially.

Hunter Reis:
You've had quite a few, whether they're promotions or title bumps, you are even, like you said, interim director at one point. Do you have advice for people who are trying to climb that corporate ladder and maybe be a people manager?

Sarah Spiers:
Again, I'm going to speak from the perspective of games. So, if you work in a different industry and you listen to this, you're like, this is BS, that's why. So, in the games industry, the fastest way to get promoted is to leave and go somewhere else, which is not necessarily the healthiest thing to do.

So, some people, that's just fine. For me, I hate the sense of an ease of starting at a new job, and I just did that for a very long time, which is why I burned out. If you're planning to stay at a company, managing up is the best way to try and get yourself promoted. And what I mean by that is, yes, do your job well, but also be able to communicate upwards what you're doing and why it's important. Everyone says, make your boss look good. That is for better or for worse, solid advice, because when you're successful, your boss looks successful. And if your boss gets promoted, then there's the vacancy, you can get promoted. For people management in particular though, going back to the question you had, Maxis or EA is a little strange. So, in games, you have a game producer. And typically, that's somebody who thinks about the product, the process, and the people but EA splits that role into two.

So, producers at EA are more vision focused, so they're going to be more creative vision and talking to everyone on the team to make sure all their priorities align. And then, my job development director, is more like who is on the team? How do we make sure that their careers are fulfilling and how can we grow them? And then, also, how do we make sure that the game that we're making is built on time and in a sustainable way? And so, we're like the people culture, product aspect of that. And for people manager in particular, we're looking for folks who are not just trying to build a healthy workplace because everyone's collaborative effort.
But you want to be someone who is really thinking strategically about how to set people up for success. So, if you want to be a manager, you are working your job in a way where, yes, you are doing the things you need to do, but you're also helping your coworkers succeed.

That is the biggest indicator. Because being a manager, honestly, is a thankless job. And I say that not as a slight at my direct reports, I adore them all, but I don't expect them to sit there and praise me. That's not their job. But it's really thinking about how you can make their lives better. And when you start demonstrating that and you're building trust with your peers, that's an indicator that you might be well suited for a management role. There's this problem in tech where people who are really competent at their jobs, get promoted into people management roles and then fail because they're not people people.

So, just being really honest with yourself. There's nothing wrong with being what we call an independent contributor and you go up that specialty route, that's fine. People management asks you to deviate from that and really think about other people more than your professional growth. So, I love it though. Yeah, I love it.

Hunter Reis:
Interesting.

Sarah Spiers:
I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about it. And I think I love people management because nothing makes me happier than seeing my team be so successful and be happy being successful. I'd rather them fail but be happy than succeed and be miserable, if that makes sense.

Hunter Reis:
Is there one part of your life now that's even better than you could have imagined when you were at Emerson?

Sarah Spiers:
Yeah, all of it, but I'll tell you. So, my dream at Emerson was to graduate from college and move to California and work at Maxis. That was what I wanted. And I think if I did that, I would still be successful. But the path that I had to take actually to get to Maxis made my life so much more interesting and fun and meaningful. And so, I think just the community that I've been able to build because I didn't immediately succeed is better than I ever could have imagined. I have some close friends that I never would've met. Had I moved? I have some friends I never would've met. Had I gone into traditional games and not educational games?

But I'm very thankful that my journey made me go to very weird roundabout places and be doing weird things because I did not work on The Sims when I graduated. I got to work on VR games, interactive audio dramas, PC, console, mobile. I got to showcase stuff at festivals. I got to work at a nonprofit. I've been able to pick up fun hobbies. I got to live in Wisconsin of all places. I've done all these cool things because I did not immediately "succeed" out of college, and I'm so happy I did not. I'm so happy I did it. It's been great.

Hunter Reis:
It's incredible. So, what would you define as making it, and how would you know when you get there?

Sarah Spiers:
I think there's so much emphasis on being someone that people know and being a name, like everyone wants you to speak at this and do that, whatever. Sure, that's success. But I think making it is being satisfied with what you're doing and where you are, and that ebbs and flows, for sure. But largely on the whole, I think for me, it's been like I found the place I want to work. I've had really cool life experiences, and I have really great friends. And I feel like there's opportunity ahead of me that I can't even fathom into me that's making it, that's being successful. It's not where you work or who you know what you do. It's just how you feel about what you've done for yourself.

Hunter Reis:
That's beautiful. I totally agree with you, especially with the ebbs and flows. Sometimes you feel like you're at the top of the world and then a year later, you could be in a totally different spot.

Sarah Spiers:
For sure. I thought I had made it when I got onto Forbes. And in a way, that is an accomplishment. I'm not going to diminish that, but that was not the end all be all because I'll tell you what happened next. I literally asked myself, "What's next?" And then, I had no answer. And I can tell you right now, what's next for me is staying at Maxis, doing a really good job there, writing, maybe getting a book. I don't know. We'll see about that. But also making perfume, having friends, exploring, visiting my family-

Hunter Reis:
Moving.

Sarah Spiers:
Yeah, that is what's next for me, and being able to focus on that aspect of my life and take a breath. And then, maybe in two years, I'll be like, "Ah, job stuff." But for now, I'm satisfied.

Hunter Reis:
That's great. That's so amazing to hear. I think that's an incredible part to end on actually then.

Sarah Spiers:
That's awesome. Good, I'm glad.

Hunter Reis:
Thank you so much, Sarah. I really appreciate it. This was a great conversation. I feel like we just really got into a good groove here.

Sarah Spiers:
Thank you. Yeah, I know this has been so much fun. And this has actually been really cathartic because I've not really reflected on my job in a while since my weird burnout spiral. This is the first time I think I've really just been honest about it. And I am very happy and thankful to be on here and to talk to you and be, I guess, one of the people who've made it. So, thank you.

Speaker 1:
Making it Big in 30 Minutes is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Engagement and was created in partnership with Alum Terri Trespicio. Our executive producer is Rebecca Glucklich and Lilly Meehan-Egan from the class of 2023 is our producer and editor.
Additional editing and mixing was done by current graduate student Trinity Hodges. Stay connected with the alumni community by following us on Facebook, Instagram, and joining the Emerson Alumni Group on LinkedIn. You can also find upcoming events, benefits and more by visiting emerson.edu/alumni.