Transcript Season 3, Episode 4
John Grisby
Terri Trespicio:
What does it mean to make it big? Well, depends on who you ask and we did. Welcome to Making It Big in 30 Minutes, a podcast for, by and about the Emerson community. You're about to meet an Emersonian who's making it. Making a living, making a difference and sometimes making it up as they go. I'm your host in Alumni, Terri Trespicio. And if you like what you hear, subscribe and share with your friends and meet me and other Emersonians over on Emerge. The only digital platform exclusive to the Emerson community, just go to emerge.emerson.edu for more. All right, let's get started. If you ask John Grisby about his advanced degree, he'll tell you he got his masters in Global Marketing Communications and Advertising from Emerson. If you ask him what he does for a living, he says he helps industry leaders solve the problem of solving problems.
Terri Trespicio:
I know it sounds like a zen koan, but in fact, solving problems is both an intellectual challenge and a business. John is managing partner at Grey Matter Global, where he helps leaders in the sports and oil industries manage change easier said than done. And both he and they have their work cut out for them. John's one of those guys who goes deep. He didn't just do a semester abroad, he went abroad and then stayed there. He's also a deep thinker and has some fascinating things to say about leadership. And he credits Emerson with being ahead of the game as a leading institution in the field of communications, because you cannot manage change without it. I give you John Grisby on making it as a consultant to the next generation of leaders. John Grisby it is such a pleasure to have you.
John Grisby:
Thank you so much, Terri. I really appreciate it.
Terri Trespicio:
We love talking to smart people.
John Grisby:
Okay.
Terri Trespicio:
So anyone can read your bio and be very... It's very impressive. But I will say that a lot of it, I don't know that I could define it for someone else. So I'm going to play a little game with you, humor me. If you were playing taboo with me and couldn't use the words, leadership or management-
John Grisby:
Right?
Terri Trespicio:
Strip it away for us and explain to the layperson?
John Grisby:
Yeah. Well, it's preparing and shifting mindset really. Where if I were speaking to a layperson, I'd ask them if they understood what... Or if they noticed in their lifetime that there's been change happening. And they would probably say "yeah," especially after COVID. And then I would explain that there are these changes in industrial revolutions and we have just crossed one and it's the fourth industrial revolution. And with that, people have to think differently, they have to... There's a huge set of skills. There's some future industry reports that the world economic forum and UK industry, US industry and other countries have amassed about what's needed in this new type of environment. And there's a set of skills like emotional intelligence, problem solving, all types of these skills. So essentially I help leaders build capacity in these places or develop-
Terri Trespicio:
So you work primarily with people who work at companies, right? Say if some people focus on business owners, entrepreneurs, you're working with people who are working inside of industry. Really sounds like any industry, any company, major organization for our purposes. And helping the leaders within those organizations adapt to change or to lead change that others will adapt to.
John Grisby:
So there's three things that I help them with. One is to understand, to make complex subjects clear. For example, oil crises, kneeling at games, these types of complex subjects that they're hard to really understand. Racism, all types of subjects that impact industries and organizations so, making sense of complexity. The second is leading through and managing through change. There's a “business as usual” change where we don't really experience change. We experience change gradually and barely can keep up with that, but we've experienced in COVID, accelerated change and that's a crisis. And so it's helping leaders to lead and manage through change-
Terri Trespicio:
Okay.
John Grisby:
And the last one is problem solving. I work with a lot of leaders from some great places that have graduated for... Have MBAs and masters. And it's so interesting how a lot of leaders do not know how to solve a problem or approach solving a problem, especially with teams, especially in larger organizations.
Terri Trespicio:
Okay. And I was going to say, there's obviously as many problems as there are people, but it probably boils down to, they're seeking outside help, right? You're for all intents and purposes and I think it's not incorrect to say consulting with these companies. And consultants are... Companies hire them by the bazillion, right? To help solve certain problems. So if someone reaches out and says, "you know who we need on the case, John Grisby, we need to call him, we need him." Is there something that you've noticed over the years, because you've been doing this a while, right? Not just now that the world has completely changed. Was there a thing that you noticed the kinds of problems you were being asked to solve?
John Grisby:
What happens when people approach me is, they are at a place where... So let me step back. Research shows in behavioral economics that people don't change unless there's an existential need. So existential need is their bottom line needs, in humans, this is food and water. We walk around all day and don't have problems. Well, most of us knock on wood, don't have problems with accessing food and water, therefore it's not really high on our priority list. But you go to a company where they don't have capacity and capability, they don't have in leadership, in management and their businesses start to disintegrate. People start to leave the company, they have cash flow problems, they don't know how to... Their strategies are simply running out, they're doing the same thing over and over. And that's the place where I get them, because they have to meet an existential need and usually that is bottom line financial.
Terri Trespicio:
Okay. So that's where it hurts?
John Grisby:
Well, sometimes yes. Most of the times for businesses, it does. But other businesses are in different situations and they may have part of the financial there, but there may be other places within a business where the existential need is so great that they need help.
Terri Trespicio:
Okay.
Terri Trespicio:
So obviously when it pitches, it's going to be something around money, or it's going to be something around, if they don't address this, they as a company might become irrelevant, or not be able to compete. And that part of it, now talk about what you love about that. What about that appeals to you? What's fun about it for you? Because I have a feeling if it weren't fun at all, you really wouldn't do it.
John Grisby:
Yeah, exactly. I like it because there are two types of problems that I solve. One is strategic and so it's working on the business and the other is working in the business, which is the day-to-day. I find it fun because I have a methodology and a framework that support these. And so when I go in, you can actually... I can face the problems, I can help them face the problems. They see total chaos, they see that they're not going to get out, they wonder how is this person going to help me. But when you start introducing them to these methodologies, which have principles and you can walk them through the principles. A principle is like gravity, I drop a pen and that's a principle of gravity. There's principles in change, for example-=
Terri Trespicio:
Okay-
John Grisby:
Change causes problems, that's it.
Terri Trespicio:
That's it. That's the essence.
John Grisby:
That change causes problems and then you need to... Well, causes problems and creates opportunities. But you have to lead and manage through that by introducing another strategy to solve the problem. And when you do, it goes through this loop again, because that introduces change. And change causes more problems and more opportunities that you mislead and manage through and then you go through that loop, that is a principle. And when you're able to put that principle so simple, up and asking the leaders, "is this what you're experiencing?" And they say, "oh my gosh, yes. I didn't think of it that way." So you're giving them a reference. It's not based on a methodology with principles.
Terri Trespicio:
Well, see then that's the thing, is you've studied these principles, you know how they apply to be a leader in industry... Don't mean to be reductive here, but you just have to do a great job and keep getting promoted. I mean, some companies offer training and obviously will bring in people and experts like you, but there's no school of leadership. Even Seth Godin says, "if there were a recipe for leaders, anyone could do it." The leaders are the ones who don't just magically know stuff that no one else knows, they seek out resources, they learn and they get better. But as a rule, managers just get promoted up and up and then their leaders, but they were never taught the principles. And so is there a blind spot... I know everyone's different, all the problems are different. But is there a blind spot that you're like, "gosh, I teach this one thing over and over and people's minds are blown," even though as you say, it's as simple as gravity. It's just that we were taught gravity and we weren't taught leadership principles. We were taught how to do our job.
John Grisby:
Right. I have a smile a mile wide, because you've touched on something that is so interesting in business schools. And this is actually from Peter Drucker, who's a well known-
Terri Trespicio:
Yep.
John Grisby:
Very well known theorist and actually practitioner. And Peter Drucker said, in business schools, they do not teach you how to problem solve. They teach you marketing-
Terri Trespicio:
But that was in my mind, what are they teaching them? Wait, go back say that again-
John Grisby:
Marketing-
Terri Trespicio:
They teach you sales, marketing, what else in business school?
John Grisby:
Marketing. They teach you functions of what a business does. But I have clients from Oxford and Cambridge. I have clients that are from some really heavy hitting schools in Europe, in the US and all over the world. And they've studied their MBAs and they step out, but they don't know how to solve problems, if they do, it'll be by intuition. And so really you're asking leaders, if you do not teach this in business school and education is far behind, it's very old. So if you do not teach us in business school, you're asking essentially someone to step out into the world of work and start solving problems and yes, that's essentially it. It's problem solving is a problem, so-
Terri Trespicio:
Problem solving is a problem.
John Grisby:
And one of the things that I say is, I help leaders solve the problem of problem solving. It's very simple.
Terri Trespicio:
Well, that's simple in essence and it makes sense to everyone. And no one would say they don't need that, but they would look at the letters after their name or the years of experience or all the education and say, "but I learned all the functions." And yet we have real holes in this knowledge, especially now. Look, people are quitting their jobs left and right, companies don't know how to find, attract, now keep talent and that's a new problem. They thought, well, of course you'd want to work for us, who doesn't want to make money working for us. And now people are like, no, I don't think so. Am I going to leave? That's a new problem.
John Grisby:
Absolutely. You're spot on. It is a new problem. And if you look at industries and how they have evolved over 10, 15, 20, 75, even 100 years, you see that in these industrial revolutions the problems continue, they just increase-
Terri Trespicio:
They're exponential-
John Grisby:
There are typical problems that a company has and leaders have, which are the day-to-day. And they're usually solved within a couple months, or... But if they go past four to five years, then it's an abnormal problem. It's like a life cycle of a human being. If you can't solve the problems that you have at a younger age, they follow you into the older you get. And it could be very... There are abnormal problems and it could lead to dysfunction. And this is where... This is the fourth industrial revolution. This is where in industries that I work in sports, oil and gas, IT digital. So I work in vertical sectors, I don't spread myself out saying, "I can work with any leader."
Terri Trespicio:
Oh, you don't. You stay right in there.
John Grisby:
As soon as I start working a sector, I write a book about it, I build a framework for it, so I can actually really focus on that sector. And so the sectors I work in are sports, oil and gas, IT digital in the middle market. So these are the industries that I basically work in, but-
Terri Trespicio:
Industries that are really light on their feet and easy to change, sports and oil and gas.
John Grisby:
It's really interesting because in the Middle East, you have companies that have relied on a main industry of oil and gas for over... Well, nearly 100 years and so you think... So the problems that they are trying to solve are not only the issues that are coming up with climate change and having to transition. But within their countries, they've relied on their industries, their capacity and capability has built so much on oil and gas, they don't have tourism sectors, they don't have leisure industries. They don't have all these other sectors and now it's a catch up game for them to build capacity in those. And it's just throwing money and trying to get people in to build these industries for when gas and oil start to diminish in their economy.
Terri Trespicio:
Yeah. But even who can hurry up and build a hospitality industry?
John Grisby:
Yeah.
Terri Trespicio:
That's trying to block a bleeding wound it seems. But I mean, when you're talking about change, man, but I can't imagine, when the world is orienting away from oil, this is basically getting an industry to admit that it's no longer relevant. I mean, this is tough stuff.
John Grisby:
It is-
Terri Trespicio:
Oh my gosh, you really picked a great problem.
John Grisby:
And a lot of people don't realize that, if we stopped oil and gas tomorrow, we would have even more problems on our hands.
Terri Trespicio:
Right, you can't just stop. It's not like, lets not do this anymore-
John Grisby:
You have to use the capacity that's there to improve-
Terri Trespicio:
To build something else-
John Grisby:
Do what's there and to be part of the solution. So oil and gas companies are part of the solution, they're not the problem. Okay, so they have their problems that have grown, but they are part of the solution. You have to find individuals, you have to find change agents within... And you said a really important part earlier about people leaving companies and there are change agents in organizations that want to change, but they end up leaving simply because the change is too... The shift in mindset in the organization is just too much.
Terri Trespicio:
Well, what do you see as the opportunities? We're a lot of people who are... A lot of our Emerson community, who's listening, who have skills in communications and in marketing. And basically in trying to get one message across to another, no matter what you do, right? Where do you see opportunities for people who could come in and help solve those problems too? Where do you see as big growth areas you'd say, to people who are coming out of school or maybe in their 30s going, "I'm bored with this thing," where are there new opportunities? Because it sounds like we need a lot of bright minds on this, but the bright minds might not realize that they're needed.
John Grisby:
Yeah. I see people who are coming out of... Or graduating now and going into industry, they are the change. Especially if you look at the creative industry like film, entertainment, there are... It's different from oil and gas and sports-
Terri Trespicio:
Of course-
John Grisby:
Because there isn't the machinery there, it's all human. And what we've seen in the past two years happen in the industry with me too and wow all these really intense race and all these other things that are starting to bubble up. People who are graduating in this industry, they are the change, so it's really up to them. They are the solution and they are the quality that is going to be injected into their industries-
Terri Trespicio:
There's a need for new kinds of thinking. But I want to go back a second because you graduated with a degree in Global Marketing Communications and Advertising. Now, someone is drawn to that because why, number one, I want to hear that.
John Grisby:
Right.
Terri Trespicio:
Because first of all, no one predicts. You can't predict what you'll end up doing, but there was a seed of something in the idea that led you this way. You may have majored in marketing communications and now you're teaching leaders. A lot of people don't understand how that jump happens.
John Grisby:
Yeah-
Terri Trespicio:
Did you know how that jump was happening?
John Grisby:
I didn't.
Terri Trespicio:
What did you think you were doing and then how did you get to this?
John Grisby:
So I left the states at the end of the 80s for an exchange program to Spain, this wasn't with Emerson, this was the university of Colorado.
Terri Trespicio:
Okay.
John Grisby:
And I essentially graduated, it was my last year. My senior year had to get foreign language credits to graduate. And I did and I stayed in Spain and I thought, "I'm not going back, there's a whole world to discover." And so I lived in Spain for about a year, went to Italy lived for a couple years, applied to do my master's at Maastricht. At that time they had a campus in Maastricht that was the-
Terri Trespicio:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
John Grisby:
EMCCI or I think it was called. But it was the undergraduate program and the master's program. It wasn't the castle, it was separate from the castle and I applied to do that. It was a lot of money, so I ended up teaching skiing in Switzerland for a year to get-
Terri Trespicio:
Oh! My God, amazing-
John Grisby:
Some nice money in the pot. And so I had such fun exploring Europe, meeting new people, this was the 80s. Actually, I was thinking the other day, I missed Friends, I missed it.
Terri Trespicio:
You total blip.
John Grisby:
I missed the entire thing because I left right when it was starting to get traction. But then there was the whole time, literally five, six, seven, eight years where I didn't watch American tv because it wasn't that easy to access. And I got fully immersed in the countries that I was in and I remember talking to some friends going off and I go, "what are all these programs doing? What are all these things out of the US and AOL and just"
Terri Trespicio:
Friends in AOL, just to make your moments of our popular culture history.
John Grisby:
And so that's why I enjoyed studying Global Marketing Communication and Advertising. It was because you had all these people from different backgrounds, different perspectives on what global marketing was. Had some great professors, Dr. Greg Payne, great, we had Dr. Sylvester as well, I had him. And so it was great learning and also to be immersed in that international culture. And then after that, I left to live in Spain for about 10 years in Barcelona and I really couldn't... I think it was a bit ahead of the market, especially for... Well, I would say for the US too. I know some people who went back to the US and it was really hard to kind of... Global marketing in the early 90s, it was kind of-
Terri Trespicio:
Yeah. We weren't thinking globally quite the same way as we are now.
John Grisby:
So I really didn't find a place where I could fit into an advertising company or type of communications. Matter of fact, when I went to Spain I said, intercommunication or internal communications or communications between two people... They would say, "what you study communications between two people?" And in the US there's all these theories that support it and all types of methodologies and things, but it was a bit too ahead of its time. So I went into basically, business development and things like that. And it kind of-
Terri Trespicio:
You waited for the world to catch up-
John Grisby:
Yeah. So I moved to London in 19... Excuse me, in 2005 and I just needed to make a shift from what I was doing and I got back in. I reconnected with my sports background and got into more of the performance side and human thinking and then that progressed to where I am now.
Terri Trespicio:
So this is a curiosity in human behavior and mindset and not just... When we think about marketing communications, you're like, "oh, someone who makes brochures." Well, that is one job, but that's not all the ways that marketing communication can be applied. I mean, if anything, especially Emerson has really stood up for and stood for how powerful and critical communications is for future growth. It's not a soft skill on the side that's nice to learn if you've had the time, right?
John Grisby:
Absolutely. And I think Emerson has been far ahead in this as well, because if we go back 10 years... Okay, great, we have film, we have video and radio and that's tangible. And as you said, these soft skills are really hard to get your head around, but people are starting to notice now that... And this is just the start, wait till we're, five, 10 years down the road. These soft skills are really going to be just as important as the hard skills.
Terri Trespicio:
Oh!
John Grisby:
And the courses that Emerson teaches in communications are so important now. You really couldn't see it, 10, 15 years ago but now, huge, I mean to... Okay, to write and communicate. So I wrote a book, it took me six years to write a book because my writing skills were awful. And I got an editor and things like that, but now I appreciate so much the credibility to just communicate in written format and also in verbally as well, clearly. I was watching something the other day about now these podcasts and what you're doing and how to deliver those. And then there's a way to write for a podcast and then there's a way to write for an article. So look at-
Terri Trespicio:
Oh! Totally different.
John Grisby:
Look how complex that gets now-
Terri Trespicio:
Right.
John Grisby:
10 years ago, you just had to know how to write an article. But now if you want that to have traction, you got to write an article and put it into podcast format. And then maybe put it into video format, which is something else. So, Emerson-
Terri Trespicio:
And also email people about it and then that's a written letter too-
John Grisby:
Yeah.
Terri Trespicio:
So everything is a chain of communication and you know yourself that it's... Sure it's hard, it's incredibly worthwhile because as you know and have seen firsthand, there are plenty of brilliant people with a whole brain full of hard skills and problems with getting it out of their head to the world, or just unable to apply it. And I feel like soft skills... And I really even hesitate to use that because I think it seems derogatory in some way or the way people talk about it, but it's sort of the... It's how we metabolize the hard skills.
John Grisby:
Yeah. I think it was in Emerson, Emerge or somewhere where I was reading. And one of the alumni I saw their role is actually a speech writer. And I went rocket scientist, I was wish I had that skill. Imagine writing a speech, especially a political speech and having to... I mean, that is an art. It's an art-
Terri Trespicio:
Do you think it rolls out of people's mouths like that? Probably not, it's an art of how to get this idea to that particular audience for that end.
John Grisby:
And now when we have all this plethora of messages coming in, it is even harder to probably sit down and write a speech even politically. And this is where the art of Emerson comes in and really teaching you how to do this because it's more important than ever now.
Terri Trespicio:
I was thinking of you because, I saw the cover story for Harvard Business review, How Good Is Your Company at Change by David Mitchell's or Michaels, I don't know and Kevin Murphy. And they break it down into nine skills for change and into three categories, leading change, accelerating change and organizing change. And some of those words are, purpose and direction and action, flexibility and also choreography. Which is an interesting skill that I'd never heard used coming out of a management consultant's mouth. That choreography is how change is accelerated. And there's what you just said before, about how important art is. When we think about choreography, we think about dance and we think about communication. We think about this kind of person, but in fact we're seeing that blend that business is an art form too, right?
Terri Trespicio:
And how you move through it and find your own way, yes, but help other people to do it. So one of the big takeaways for me is, not to assume that anyone in a leadership role, A, knows more than you or that you can't also be a leader. But being a leader is not just getting one person to give you a raise and to give you a promotion, right? That it sounds like it behooves all of us to understand how impossible changes so that we come to it with all of our skills and all of our curiosities too. I mean, you're making a living doing something that excites you intellectually and that in itself is a win. But you didn't get there because someone was like, "Hey John, you should do this job." You made it up as you went along.
John Grisby:
Yeah. That's a really interesting point because in... Especially for the strategic part. I got really confused and it was a time when I was doing work in this human performance in the UK, going into different organizations and to different sports teams. And everyone had a different definition for what performance was.
Terri Trespicio:
Oh, God.
John Grisby:
And I thought, this can't be. And I'm coming with my mindset that's very American, in the US compared to other countries. We started in a real advantageous position. I can remember I was doing triathlons at the University of Colorado Boulder, in 84 and triathlons weren't even out there in other countries. So I started saying to myself, I'm confused. One team says performance is this, the other team says, it's like this. I'm thinking this, how do I understand this type of complexity? And so I dove into really understand and basically what it amounts to is we don't... To define leadership, it's not that we define it with these set of characteristics. You flip it and it's the context define what skills the leaders need. So when I go to the Middle East, I don't bring a set of the perceived-
Terri Trespicio:
Right-
John Grisby:
Notions about what a leader is. There is something called indigenous intelligence on the ground and it can be... Especially with these countries and they have formats that you communicate in. This is another thing, interpersonal, intercultural communication. They have ways of saying yes, but no, they have... It's very complex and leaders there, that's their style of leadership. If you take that to the US, it would not work at all.
Terri Trespicio:
No, right. So it's not enough to be smart in your head and go, "here's how everyone should think." It matters to and you know this because you've immersed yourself in cultures that are other than the one you were raising in and learned them and I think that's critical. And that requires that we not only be great communicators, but also be great listeners.
John Grisby:
Absolutely. Yes.
Terri Trespicio:
And I love that you mentioned that you were on Emerge. So if you want to connect with John Grisby and see what he's up to or send a message. He's on Emerge, which is the first digital platform for alumni and students of Emerson. I'm very proud of that, that was my baby. I helped launch it.
John Grisby:
Oh! Congratulations.
Terri Trespicio:
They helped me name it. I'm very proud of the name.
John Grisby:
That's great.
Terri Trespicio:
But it's a place for people to go and do this, to share knowledge, opportunities, insights and to connect with each other. So definitely I'll put in a pitch for that, emerge.emerson.edu. If it's good enough for John Grisby, it's good enough for you. I'll leave it with this, John, what is your definition of making it in an industry, in your career? And how will you know if you get there or when you get there?
John Grisby:
I think making it is about the personal satisfaction that you get when you're doing something. I know there's always a cost involved and how much you get paid, so we'll put that to aside. But it is doing what you want to do and even though it's unconventional. And I think that is making it. You are blazing a trail, you're blazing a path and it is so hard to do. To go out of these conventions of what... You need to go to school, get a college education, go out maybe get a masters, kind of follow this plan. But those who take another path that is... The fact that you're taking a path is making it for me. It has no destination, it is blazing the trail.
Terri Trespicio:
And you've done it and you're continued to do it. John Grisby, thank you so much for joining us here.
John Grisby:
Thank you. It's my pleasure. Thank you very much.
Terri Trespicio:
Making It Big in 30 Minutes is sponsored by the Emerson College office of Alumni engagement and supported by the Alumni board of directors. Stay in touch with the Emerson community by joining us over at Emerge, a digital platform where Emersonian go to connect, just go to emerge.emerson.edu for more.